Language CD-ROM

[Bueller]

My work just took me to Québec for the third time in less than a year, and I finally decided that it's time to set aside Italian for a while and learn French. Canada is a charming country to visit, and it's common to find people in Québec who don't speak English. So I picked up a few all-French grammar books to study, and once back in the States I looked around for some CD-ROMs to help me with the pronunciation.
I was about to buy the $40 Berlitz program at OfficeMax, when I noticed that there was a $10 French Essentials program published by eLanguage. Coupled with OfficeMax's buy-one-get-one-free offer, I got the French program, and the Encyclopedia Britannica bundled with the Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary/Thesaurus for $10. How about them pommes?
What I like most about the program is the help it gives with pronunciation, including a speech-recognition function that rates the user's efforts on a sliding scale from tourist to native.
I mention this here because there was also a Spanish version on the shelf, for any of you who may be interested.

[LastLion]

Bueller, How many languages do yo speak? Are you fluent in any of them/ Do you find it better to learn one language really well prior to learning another language? Or does it help to learn more than one language at a time? Just a couple of quick ?'ss

[Bueller]

Portuguese fluently, Spanish pretty fluently, and a tiny bit of Italian now.

I think it's best to take one language at a time and pretty much nail it down before starting on the next. When you start on the next one, you'll see a lot of familiar concepts, which makes the going easier, but if you start it too soon you'll just confuse yourself. My $.02.

Correction to original post-- the store was Office Depot, not OfficeMax.

[NunoEFSilva]

BTW Bueller, I would like to know your opinion: if an American (Anglo-Saxon) Gringo where to try his hand at Latin-derived Languages (Italian, Portuguese, Spanish), which one would you advise as the first stop? The one that, once dominated, would help the most in understanding the others? Just comparing notes...

Nuno

[Bueller]

I only know two of them, and of the two, I'd probably recommend Spanish: it is a rather uniform language in its rules; it is pronounced just like it is written; there is relatively little difference between conversational and written/formal Spanish; there are far more learning resources available; there are far more opportunities to converse with native speakers in daily life; and for the guys in this forum, there is a great motivator, that of being able to meet and converse with some of the nicest, prettiest women on the planet.

That last point best answers your first question, because a person's motivation is more important than anything. If a guy's true preference is for Brazilian women and culture, he should just go for that, and deal with the particular challenges that Portuguese presents. For instance, it took me months of living in Brazil and taking classes (not full-time) to really start to understand the difference between classroom Portuguese and the way it is spoken in ordinary conversation. My motivation for Italian is a fascination with the culture, cuisine, and culture of Italy, and a desire to spend more time there without trodding the tourist trail. The language isn't too hard after Spanish, but it doesn't have diacritical marks (~, ´, ^, etc.) to help out with pronunciation. I will say, once I started to hit my stride in Portuguese, my love-hate relationship with it began to turn more into love, and the ability to read Machado de Assis and to understand Caetano Veloso has been very rewarding. I look forward to reading Camões, though it probably won't be this year.

As far as which language would help the most in understanding the others, I don't think there is enough difference in this respect to affect someone's decision. I would just recommend spending time reading interesting and knowledgeable grammar experts so as to get the straight scoop and so as to avoid being misled by the many mistakes you'll encounter on billboards, advertisements, headlines, newspaper articles, and in conversation. Here are some good online resources geared at native speakers of Portuguese:

http://jovempan.uol.com.br/jpamnew/d...uesa/index.php
http://www2.uol.com.br/linguaportuguesa/
http://www.liceuliterario.org.br/

The more you read of this sort of material, the more other languages of the same family will make sense, since the authors often deal with how the language evolved from Latin.

[NunoEFSilva]

Thank you very much for that most insightful of answers Bueller!

True, Spanish in the context of Latin America is much more motivating (and less difficult to learn) than Portuguese. Also has a lot more exposure. And sure, I would not hide that I'm in love with Brazilian culture, therefore biased. (But then again, also American culture...)

The reason I asked in the first place was that most Portuguese (not so much Brazilians) understand (and speak, at least more than enough to make themselves understood) Spanish and Italian. The reverse is not true. (French is another matter... most Portuguese speak it but had to learn it in school - doesn't come to us instinctively.)

On the cuisine topic: did you ever sampled Portugal's cuisine? (Very different from Spain's or Italy's, themselves superb!)

If you're craving for the literature route to a culture (Portuguese in the case), I wouldn't advise you to tackle Luís de Camões - or Frei Luís de Sousa - not just yet. It is very Old Portuguese. English didn't change so much in 500 years but 15th Century Portuguese is hard even for the average Portuguese (albeit Camões is required reading in high school).

Could I interest you instead in a more recent Fernando Pessoa?

Ó mar salgado, quanto do teu sal
São lágrimas de Portugal!
Por te cruzarmos, quantas mães choraram,
Quantos filhos em vão rezaram!
Quantas noivas ficaram por casar
Para que fosses nosso, ó mar!

Valeu a pena? Tudo vale a pena
Se a alma não é pequena.
Quem quer passar além do Bojador
Tem que passar além da dor.
Deus ao mar o perigo e o abismo deu,
Mas nele é que espelhou o céu.

Divirta-se Bueller meu amigo.

Nuno

[NunoEFSilva]

Ok Bueller, I know you could fully appreciate that, but (under the risk of seeming smug) I needed to translate (and slightly adapt) the previous excerpt:

Oh salty sea, how much of your salt
is (salted by) Portugal's tears!
For crossing you, how many mothers have wailed,
how many sons have prayed to no avail!
How many brides stayed unmarried,
so that you became ours oh salty sea!

Was it worth it? Anything is of worth
if one's soul is not petty.
Whoever wants to pass Cape Fear
has to master and pass beyond pain.
God, danger and abyss gave to the sea,
but in it the sky reflected He.

I know my translation skills stink, but I just couldn't resist - sorry guyz!

Nuno

[Bueller]

Originally Posted by NunoEFSilva

The reason I asked in the first place was that most Portuguese (not so much Brazilians) understand (and speak, at least more than enough to make themselves understood) Spanish and Italian. The reverse is not true. (French is another matter... most Portuguese speak it but had to learn it in school - doesn't come to us instinctively.)

I don't know why this would be. I have noticed that a surprising number of Portuguese speak English, while at least pretending not to understand Spanish.

Originally Posted by NunoEFSilva

On the cuisine topic: did you ever sampled Portugal's cuisine? (Very different from Spain's or Italy's, themselves superb!)

Yes, I have. When I lived in Salamanca, the Spanish husband of the (Belgian!) director of our school took several of us on a little field trip to Miranda do Douro, and we had lunch there, with him ordering for us. He was kind of a joker, and told us that speaking (continental) Portuguese is like speaking Spanish with a potato in your mouth. I also got a chance more than once to rent a car and go explore Andalucía and Portugal on my own, and the food was one of the things I enjoyed most about the country. Not really spectacular or exotic, but everything had an earthy, homemade touch to it. The bakery items in Portugal are wonderful, and the coffee is so much better than in Spain. I finally gave up on trying to find good coffee in Spain, and wound up ordering green beans from a guy in Holland http://www.vdpcoffee.nl/ and roasting them myself in a popcorn popper.

I'll take your advice on Camões, and just stick to Machado. He's so much fun anyway.

[NunoEFSilva]

Originally Posted by Bueller

I don't know why this would be. I have noticed that a surprising number of Portuguese speak English, while at least pretending not to understand Spanish.

Well... You're right, the operating word here is "pretending".

Any Portuguese is proud to know some English - while hiding his 'Spanish' capabilities.

You see, for most of our common history Portugal was Anglophile while Spain was antagonistic of all things English. The fact is Portugal would not exist were it not for England (credit where it's due) - and one suspects England would at the very least be a lot smaller and poorer. (Heck! I'm a mixture of English and Latino bloods myself, as most Portuguese are.)

The competition (and antipathy) most Portuguese display toward Spain - even today - is still echoed in the attitude most Brazilians have toward Argentina (also Castelhano speakers). That does not prevent Spaniards trying to smooth us over by calling us "nuestros hermanos" to which we politely smile a very yellow smile.

You won't see this voiced out loud (we're discreet) but Spaniards know us well enough to have learned we take centuries to forget. (So do the British.)

Believe you me when I say we do understand 'Spanish' fine...

Originally Posted by Bueller

When I lived in Salamanca, the Spanish husband of the (Belgian!) director of our school (...) told us that speaking (continental) Portuguese is like speaking Spanish with a potato in your mouth.

His opinion I'm sure...

Originally Posted by Bueller

Not really spectacular or exotic, but everything had an earthy, homemade touch to it.

Precisely! Mama's food.

Originally Posted by Bueller

The bakery items in Portugal are wonderful, and the coffee is so much better than in Spain.

Why, thank you Bueller! (but Brazilian or Colombian coffees are sooo much better!...)

Originally Posted by Bueller

I'll take your advice on Camões, and just stick to Machado. He's so much fun anyway.

That's for sure. The biggest Opus by Camões was "The Lusíadas", an Epic about the discoveries on the tradition of the Odyssey (Homer, ancient Greece) and Aeneid (Virgil, Imperial Rome), only written a "few" centuries later (15th Century). Some scholars consider it quite accomplished in that respect - but I think it is too stuffy for language studies...

Again, thanks Bueller!

Nuno

[NunoEFSilva]

Okay. Best kept secret.
Should you visit Portugal in the summertime, you GOT TO try Green Wine (Vinho Verde).
Chilled. Verrry. Accompanying seafood (lobster, crab, prawns and the like).
Only here. Manufactured nowhere else. Shows up in Brazil as an import (Oh, they know about it...) Less alcohol, lots more taste.
Chiiiuuu! Don't tell anyone...

Nuno